Heaven makes you a robot

24 Mar

The other day I was listening to the Godless Business podcast and they made a very interesting point:

Christians say god did not want robots, so he gave us free will. Yet despite this, we must put his will before ours. (Or at least what other humans say is his will)

They cited the story of god asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, something that’s horrible, but was the will of god, as a test (despite his all-knowingness).

Also, take the lord’s prayer:

Our father

which art in heaven,

hallowed by thy name;

thy kingdom come;

thy will be done,

in earth as it is in heaven

So we have free will, and the wonderful freedom to use that free will to follow what god tells us he wants….. or burn in hell forever, but that aside, what about heaven?

Well, heaven is a place where you get to sing god’s praises for eternity, like his own little cheer-leading squad. Take an excerpt from the song “I can only imagine” by Mercy Me:

I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever
Forever worship You

I can only imagine

So in heaven you become a robot for god, where you constantly worship him. What’s the point of having free will? What’s the point of any of this if you’re just going to end up as a mindless automaton in heaven?

9 Responses to “Heaven makes you a robot”

  1. christianclarityreview March 24, 2010 at 2:20 pm #

    actually, it is the false Christians that say you have free will. Arminians, RC’s, ‘four point’ Calvinists, etc.

    The problem for people who believe in free will is that in order to have it, they must deny that God is His Word and that God as Word/Christ is separate ( as in a whole other speech) from human speech. God as Word creates: this is standard Christianity ‘let there be light ..and there was light..; ‘begat he us by the word of truth’, ‘being born again ..by the living and abiding Word of God”

    Human speech of course cannot call things into existence. Having basically implied that Satan and God have the same speech by implying only human speech exists in total reality, ( in actual Christianity that is known as the unforgivable sin ) those false Christians need at least the appearance of a will-neutral means of communication to have the appearance of living in a total environment that permits free will. If you have a speech that creates –even creates you over again when He wants ( technically called salvation ) — ..what free will?

    They seek to deny God as he actually is AND say they worship God. They are lying and doing so in a speech that is not Jesus Christ.

    That’s not a problem for you. God has you a ..atheist? ..so far. You are in their speech, ( human speech) but not using Christian-centric terms so far. But you have to say the same thing to keep saying you have free will: you have to say only non-creating/human speech exists in total reality as part of a overall will-neutral environment that permits free will. Perhaps you might use a purpose of speech argument ( like the false Christians do..) that basically goes: “the purpose of human speech is to deliver information. If that information did something to you then it wouldn’t be will-neutral and wouldn’t be human speech. The information must be will-neutral because it is human speech and only human speech exists in total reality. Therefore I have free will.”

    It’s not a very smart argument, or even well articulated, but ..people who believe it in a very hardcore way fooled you into thinking they were real Christians. So, on a certain level, it works on those already really, really, really wanting to have free will.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing: the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life.

    timothy

    In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

  2. godlesspaladin March 24, 2010 at 3:02 pm #

    “the purpose of human speech is to deliver information. If that information did something to you then it wouldn’t be will-neutral and wouldn’t be human speech. The information must be will-neutral because it is human speech and only human speech exists in total reality. Therefore I have free will.”

    Wha? Information must be “will-neutral”? I’m trying but I really don’t follow.

    And as for “false christians” this really irates me. There are christians out there they would claim that YOU are the false christian, just as you claim THEY are. There are so many different squabbling brands of christian it makes trying to argue a point against them ridiculous. I argue X and one brand of christian will jump up and say “No no! True christians don’t believe X, only false ones do! REAL christians believe Y!” Then another will jump up and say “No! They believe Z!” and round and round we go…. it’s really quite pointless to try and argue with them, don’t know why I waste my time…

    Oh, and tossing out bible verses is useless, they’re powerless and don’t help your argument.

  3. Perry Robinson March 24, 2010 at 8:03 pm #

    This was already explored and addressed in the 7th century at the sixth ecumenical council. In sum, humans begin with freedom but their use of their power of choice hasn’t congealed since their character hasn’t been fixed. Over time it becomes fixed either in the good or the evil. Free will in the Libertarian sense only requires choosing between alternatives, not morally opposed alternatives. Just so long as those in heaven have multiple goods to choose between, they can enjoy freedom. I addressed this more fully here->
    http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2005/01/30/simplicity-virtue-and-the-problem-of-evil-pt-1/
    http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2005/02/12/simplicity-virtue-and-the-problem-of-evil-pt-2-3/

    God’s use of freedom is always fixedin the good since he never begins to do good.

  4. christianclarityreview March 25, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    Put another way:

    No one can be a robot. That’s simple reality. In fact all people who are religionists ( as opposed to born again Christians ) or atheists are guilty on that very basis: because they cannot be robots who perfectly follow an ideal model of behavior that someone else makes up or they make up for themselves.

    Atheists on the one hand, simply move on to another behavioral model and try to stay ahead of the moral guilt. It doesn’t work. But they boast as if it does. You find them in the ‘social sciences’ trying to cover over the fact they are searching for a guilt free ideal model or a method to force themselves ( and everyone else) to do repeated behaviors and call them ethical simply becuase they are repeated ..sometimes.

    Religionists on the other hand, because they believe in free will, just like the atheist, think that they must do a ideal model of behavior made up by someone else in God’s name. The lie is that they ideally ought to be able to be a robot and do that behavior perfectly “because they have free will”. They struggle within one model and have forgiveness schemes given out by those making up the behavioral models that keep them under the thumb of the false rule-makers as the only real repeated behavior.

    The religionists sees the atheists as a coward who runs away from guilt, while seeing themselves as a hero for putting up a fight and having stick-to-it qualities. The atheists sees the religionists as basically stupid to be lorded over by liars who constantly change the rules to cover over the fact no one can ever do them perfectly and to introduce new ones that are impossible just in case anybody ever did the old rules a long time successfully.

    A real Christian, as well as a savvy atheist, only because God showed both of them the truth, would see that the religionists has to at least pretend somebody in the past really was a robot and did the behaviors as holding up a supposed champion who succeeded at the religion: those religions would ‘canonize’ such persons and thats how they end up with titles like “St. Jerome” and “St. Christopher”, etc. That’s why they need the ‘saints’ and why they keep canonizing people: supposedly, you can do the ideal model because Mother Theresa supposedly did and she lived fairly recently and thus had a modern model. It’s propaganda for the religion..

    The atheists is then the more honest sinner, who, though equally on his or her way to the lake of fire if not born again in Jesus Christ, at least isn’t faking they ‘already’ believe in Jesus Christ.

    That’s why God told the religionists of his day:

    Matthew 21:28-32 But what think ye? A man had two children, and coming to the first he said, Child, go to-day, work in my vineyard. And he answering said, I will not; but afterwards repenting himself he went. And coming to the second he said likewise; and he answering said, *I* go , sir, and went not. Which of the two did the will of the father? They say to him , The first. Jesus says to them, Verily I say unto you that the tax-gatherers and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not; but the tax-gatherers and the harlots believed him; but *ye* when ye saw it repented not yourselves afterwards to believe him.

    Yet those who are religionists pretend calvinism ‘makes people robots’. In fact, becuase there is no free will, and you cannot be a robot –and you know you cannot be a robot, and becuase God is His Word and creates within you, if He dwells in you new things, you can never by definition be a robot and do repeated behaviors. You can however, find peace and never do evil, even as an experiment. If you are born again sin will still dwell in your flesh, but you are no longer flesh and thus, as famously known, there will be a war between the flesh and the spirit –and no ideal model of behavior except that which excludes evil.

    You will find that those who complain about being made ‘robots’ by such and such theology always have a firm belief in free will and have already tried to be robots and do a certain ideal model and failed and don’t feel like trying it out again without the freedom to leave that model if it doesn’t work to make them a robot. They are secretly dreaming about making it to a guilt-free state by making it to a land where they can always be a robot.

    But it will never happen. It’s new birth in Jesus Christ and no being a robot or the lake of fire and lack of being a robot.

    I say in Christ, you can’t hold on to your atheism as an ideal model/robot. What do you say?

    Proverbs 5:21-23 For the ways of man are before the eyes of Jehovah, and he pondereth all his paths. His own iniquities shall take the wicked, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sin. He shall die for want of discipline; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.

    timothy

    In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

  5. Andrew Skegg March 26, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    Wow – you certainly attract the crazy.

  6. godlesspaladin March 26, 2010 at 5:21 pm #

    Tell me about it…

  7. BenCrayton March 28, 2010 at 3:08 pm #

    Well, you asked for it when you threw out the term “free will,” haha.

    To take a psychological approach, I would say the notion of doing something rote or monotonous in heaven was born out of our human fear of death.

    We want to do something to avoid eternal punishment (or, simply, death) and heaven serves not only as a locational escape from punishment but is (in our heads) also a process by which we are continually avoiding punishment.

    To use a slightly religious word, singing forever is our “penance” or penalty for avoiding hell.

    This is in agreement with your overall belief that religion, specifically Christianity, has an exclusively human source.

    To play devil’s advocate (or Christian’s advocate, in this case) we would have to take descriptions of heaven that are found in the Bible instead of modern day songs or conceptions concerning heaven, to make a sound judgement.

    Unfortunately, I don’t have anything mind-blowing. I don’t know what heaven will be like (is supposed to be like), but it is often compared, readily, with Earth (ex. mansions and golden streets).

    My conception is that in heaven, like Earth, we will have free will (or the illusion of free will, if you are a “five” point Calvinist); but that without sin, th array of choices presented to us will all be good or holy or righteous, or whatever. We will continually ask ourselves, “How now shall I serve God?”

    All in all though, I must agree that it is interesting to see evangelical Christians attribute the pain in this world to the construct that “we are not robots,” but nearly admit that it would be ideal if we were.

  8. Scott V. March 31, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    To clarityreview:
    I am inclined to agree with paladin about the judging thing. Who is really a “true” Christian is only decisively known by God. Because only he knows what is in the harts on men. we can only judge by outward appearance, which is helpful for us to safeguard ourselves from liars and stuff it is not a final word on the person in questions soul. The only lipness test we have is that is somebody says Jesus is not God and he did not die and rise again ..it is definite he is not following God.

    I saw a man who asked if he was a Christian and his response was. “Isn’t that something you should tell me?”
    Remember, early Christians did not call themselves “cristians” to their minds that might seem pretentious, seeing it meant “little Christ”. Later the wore it as a complement but to the Romans who coined the term it meant little more than nigger, yankie, charlie, or chink does to us. Predestination vs freewill I do not see as a make or break of if somebody is following Christ or not. I do not see any paradox in both being true, like two sides of the same coin.

    To Paladin:
    It does say that those who believe in God are his slaves. It says moreover that we are either a slave to our own destruction or to the God of life, the question is posed not as to servitude but to the quality of the taskmaster. Christ said his burden was light. better to die to live than to live only to die.

    I happily say “thy will be done!” because it is a superior will. Our will is to be a “viagra popping golf prick” in various permiations. If Gods will created the beauty of the cosmos, vibrations capable of music and color, and the the beauty of a woman, count me aboard that train, it is going somewhere good!

    So “what’s the point of any of this if you’re just going to end up as a mindless automaton in heaven?”
    –well, are you a mindless automation now? let the philosophers figure that out. but heavin is going to be this but just without the destruction, arrogance, selfishness, idiocy and pride. -and somehow ‘upgraded’..a lot.

    Do you really think that a God that created so much depth and complexity as the human genome and created your mind to think and your heart to feel would turn you into anything less than *MORE* than what you currently are?

    Also, The bible mentions worship not limited to singing. When I do art that can be worship, when I garden for some elderly person, that is worship. when I enjoy a sunset knowing that God is its painter, that too is worship. Worship is a condition of the heart. To quote a verse, “the fruit(product) of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

    A final note on us being Gods “slaves”. HE likens it to a child of a wealthy father who while being a child and having an inheritance cannot receive it yet, so the child is like the servants of the manor. But when the child is fully grown he becomes more than the servants and even receives the status as “friend” and “beneficiary”. In like manner God wants us to fear him alone. It says “Fear of God is the *beginning* of wisdom”. This too seems very negative, but If I fear God, I am freed from all other fear. and if he loves me (as he promises he does) even though I fear him then were does fear go? this is why the Bible says “Perfect love casts out all fear.”

    I hope I am speaking plainly and in a way that makes sense. I am a retardedly slow writer so I only like to type when I feel somebody would genuinely receive an answer.

  9. Scott V. March 31, 2010 at 3:04 pm #

    You brought up Abraham.
    When critisizeing something it is good to have a strong understanding of it, perhaps I can help that -your welcome 🙂
    So God doesn’t test for his sake, only our sake, our learning actually. As you already mentioned, he knows.

    Read the whole text about Abraham carefully. God gave Abraham a prophetic Logic problem. Many people miss this underestimating the intelligence of scripture, and in blind skepticism miss the point entirely -i did.

    a. God promised him a son and that through his sons line would come the hope of all nations.

    to really appreciate this narrative you have to know Sarah was very old (90) and had been barren her whole life. This is by natural means an absurd proposition. The very fact he had a son at all was a miracle! The miracle of his sons birth is key not to forget.

    so when it actually happened it provided Abraham an inference.

    b. God keeps his promises.

    this point was not made just one time but many times though out his life so his faith would not be blind but substantiated by experience.

    Now comes the bomb:

    c. kill your son I gave you.

    a + b ≠ c? I should disobey God because he is not making any sense and is not competent.
    OR
    a + c ≠ b? God does not fulfill his promises and is a capricious jerk.
    OR
    a + c = b + x? God has been faithful this far so perhaps he will do something “x”. After all i don’t know everything.

    X could be one of two things to make God Faithful to his word ant intentions.
    1. raise his son back to life after he did the deed.
    2. provide some thing in place of his son.

    Both of these answers point to Jesus Christ (who’s name literally translates “God is with us who saves”) who did both die in our place as justice for our destructive actions AND rose from the dead to enjoy the fruits of his payment.

    You take care and have a good day.

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